I hate 360s

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Acid 97
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I hate 360s

Postby Acid 97 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:13 am

Now's the time where I rant about the second thing I hate most about fighters: the 360 command.

Oh, grapplers, I love you guys. It feels so much more awesome to win with those guys. While they are saddled by bad movement, maybe that's kind of the share: everybody needs a weak point or two, otherwise you just become flat-out broke.
But while the 360 has been thought of from an aesthetic standpoint, in practicality it's like trying saying humans would fly just by adding wings on their body. Doesn't work: the rest of the body is too heavy.
Same for a 360: you try to grab, except for that, you're required to either jump, or buffering that in something else.
I always wonder why people even keep that motion, as there's no way ever to do a standing command grab. Like, it always seems so pointless to me, especially since there are other motions that don't require something quite as convoluted.
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby UncleBibby » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:42 pm

Acid 97 wrote:Now's the time where I rant about the second thing I hate most about fighters: the 360 command.

Oh, grapplers, I love you guys. It feels so much more awesome to win with those guys. While they are saddled by bad movement, maybe that's kind of the share: everybody needs a weak point or two, otherwise you just become flat-out broke.
But while the 360 has been thought of from an aesthetic standpoint, in practicality it's like trying saying humans would fly just by adding wings on their body. Doesn't work: the rest of the body is too heavy.
Same for a 360: you try to grab, except for that, you're required to either jump, or buffering that in something else.
I always wonder why people even keep that motion, as there's no way ever to do a standing command grab. Like, it always seems so pointless to me, especially since there are other motions that don't require something quite as convoluted.

i just tried zangief in sfv and not only can i do his 360 grab out of neutral standing position just as easy as i can do it in sf4, but his 720 command is even easier to do out of a forward dash than in sf4, even though the dash seems quicker.

yet in sf2 i can barely EVER do 360s. in sf3 i can do them about half of the time.

so i think it's all a matter of how the game deals with inputs. in sf2, its very hard. in sf4 and sf5 its much easier but still hard if yer not used to it. in skullgirls, the game supposedly disables jumping temporarily as soon as you start doing a circle. so its all a matter of how the game works.

i actually find 360s easier than half circle backs in some games because i can do it starting from forwards OR backwards.
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby Acid 97 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:34 am

UncleBibby wrote:i just tried zangief in sfv and not only can i do his 360 grab out of neutral standing position just as easy as i can do it in sf4, but his 720 command is even easier to do out of a forward dash than in sf4, even though the dash seems quicker.

yet in sf2 i can barely EVER do 360s. in sf3 i can do them about half of the time.

so i think it's all a matter of how the game deals with inputs. in sf2, its very hard. in sf4 and sf5 its much easier but still hard if yer not used to it. in skullgirls, the game supposedly disables jumping temporarily as soon as you start doing a circle. so its all a matter of how the game works.

i actually find 360s easier than half circle backs in some games because i can do it starting from forwards OR backwards.

Well, 360s are still a needless execution barrier. You need to be able to press that punch button before the jump startup has finished, and thank the developers that Zangief has a 5-frame jump startup in opposition to the normal 3. Add to that, they had to simplify a 360 at hitting 6 points in the directional stick instead of the old 7. The Skullgirls variant, disabling jumping, might just deprive you of jumping out of a move you see coming while doing your 360 and are like "shoot, that's not gonna work". Which leaves you to try to block instead of jumping out of the way.
If you could use both half-circles (back OR forward) rather than the usual 360 command, that would suddenly get a lot easier. Heck, David Sirlin, who was the head developer for SF2 HD Remix, changed the 360s to half-circle forward -> back or half-circle back -> forward, specifically to avoid the jumping as to make a walking 360 (or even 720) possible. The fact also is, I considerably hate execution barriers, even though this post was not about personal experience. There are other commands which are more accessible, and in my opinion, NOT doing so is like saying "or we can just flat-out say F**K THE PLAYERS!!!!11!1!!!1!11!!ONE". As far as personal opinion goes, I don't respect people who think this way, and (to quote someone else) I encourage any lead director to fire any of their staff who do. Yeah I went this far.

EDIT: To all of you who want to say I'm a scrub and I just wanna dumb games down so I can play, I'll quote David Sirlin again: it's not dumbing the game down, it's removing artifically-difficult commands in favor of the real key aspect of fighting games: decision-making.
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby UncleBibby » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Acid 97 wrote:
UncleBibby wrote:i just tried zangief in sfv and not only can i do his 360 grab out of neutral standing position just as easy as i can do it in sf4, but his 720 command is even easier to do out of a forward dash than in sf4, even though the dash seems quicker.

yet in sf2 i can barely EVER do 360s. in sf3 i can do them about half of the time.

so i think it's all a matter of how the game deals with inputs. in sf2, its very hard. in sf4 and sf5 its much easier but still hard if yer not used to it. in skullgirls, the game supposedly disables jumping temporarily as soon as you start doing a circle. so its all a matter of how the game works.

i actually find 360s easier than half circle backs in some games because i can do it starting from forwards OR backwards.

Well, 360s are still a needless execution barrier. You need to be able to press that punch button before the jump startup has finished, and thank the developers that Zangief has a 5-frame jump startup in opposition to the normal 3. Add to that, they had to simplify a 360 at hitting 6 points in the directional stick instead of the old 7. The Skullgirls variant, disabling jumping, might just deprive you of jumping out of a move you see coming while doing your 360 and are like "shoot, that's not gonna work". Which leaves you to try to block instead of jumping out of the way.
If you could use both half-circles (back OR forward) rather than the usual 360 command, that would suddenly get a lot easier. Heck, David Sirlin, who was the head developer for SF2 HD Remix, changed the 360s to half-circle forward -> back or half-circle back -> forward, specifically to avoid the jumping as to make a walking 360 (or even 720) possible. The fact also is, I considerably hate execution barriers, even though this post was not about personal experience. There are other commands which are more accessible, and in my opinion, NOT doing so is like saying "or we can just flat-out say F**K THE PLAYERS!!!!11!1!!!1!11!!ONE". As far as personal opinion goes, I don't respect people who think this way, and (to quote someone else) I encourage any lead director to fire any of their staff who do. Yeah I went this far.

EDIT: To all of you who want to say I'm a scrub and I just wanna dumb games down so I can play, I'll quote David Sirlin again: it's not dumbing the game down, it's removing artifically-difficult commands in favor of the real key aspect of fighting games: decision-making.

to be honest, i find half-circle-back-forward commands to be really hard, in king of fighters, ssf2hdr and guilty gear. i find 360s easier. but maybe im just way more used to doing 360s... and sf4 and sf5 doesnt really have halfcirclebackforward commands very much other than the lesser grab ultras... like hondas u2. i have a lot of trouble doing hondas u2 and sorta wish it was a 720.

i think it depends on the person... but maybe not i dunno
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby Oculus-Orbis » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:13 am

Seriously I mean what's the point of a 360. You are just pointing the direction you started! :lol:
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby Acid 97 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:56 am

UncleBibby wrote:to be honest, i find half-circle-back-forward commands to be really hard, in king of fighters, ssf2hdr and guilty gear. i find 360s easier.
Because the "360" isn't even an actual 360° spin. It's 270°, or more recently 225°. Technically, I'd prefer if grabs only required a half-circle at most. Heck, I've even seen a quarter-circle command grab, though of course it's nowhere near as powerful as a good ol' grappler's prized grab.
UncleBibby wrote:but maybe im just way more used to doing 360s... and sf4 and sf5 doesnt really have halfcirclebackforward commands very much other than the lesser grab ultras... like hondas u2. i have a lot of trouble doing hondas u2 and sorta wish it was a 720.
Honda's U2 is a double half-circle back. Technically it's easier since to do a 720, depending on the starting position you're basically forced to do that double half-circle... but I understand people have problems doing it.
Heck, I'm sure that normally you could do it as a 720, with the only restriction being you have to start from forward and go backwards first
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby Phoenix R. Aensland » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:08 pm

You want to know what I freaking hate? Move input's like Vega's or Bison's. Particularly their ultra combos. If you don't know what I mean, this is M. Bison's Psycho Punisher ultra. :joystick-charge-down-left: :joystick-down-right: :joystick-down-left: :joystick-up-right: :punch-3x: You see what I mean? You can only perform this move while grounded, and yet the input commands you to jump!

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Re: I hate 360s

Postby Acid 97 » Wed May 18, 2016 11:53 am

These commands are absurdly hard, but so are :joystick-charge-down: :joystick-up: .

So while I get that the gripe is somewhat similar - and I agree with you - this is a bit different than the topic at hand.
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If you're bored, that's probably because you are a boring person.
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UncleBibby
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Re: I hate 360s

Postby UncleBibby » Fri May 20, 2016 1:58 pm

Acid 97 wrote:These commands are absurdly hard, but so are :joystick-charge-down: :joystick-up: .

So while I get that the gripe is somewhat similar - and I agree with you - this is a bit different than the topic at hand.

i find vertical charge moves easier to anti-air with than dp-motion moves, but whatever...

quarter-circle moves are somewhere in between for me.
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